Join Lorien as she chats with the United Kingdom's leading supplement brand YuMOVE, about their expansion into the US market, and what their product means for you and your pet. Lorien is joined by CEO and Co-Founder John Howie to discuss the amazing benefits that their science based supplement provides. Enjoy!
00:00 Lorien Clemens
Hey pet lovers. Welcome to Pet Lover Geek powered by PetHub. I'm Lorien Clemens and today we have a really super awesome guess, his name is Dr. John Howie. He is the CEO and Co-Founder of Lintbells, and you may be asking yourself, "Lintbells?, what is Lintbells?" Well don't worry, we're gonna introduce you today. Lintbells is a company that does incredible supplements for our pets, and they've got a really popular supplement called YuMOVE that is the number one supplement for joint health, recommended by veterinarians all over the UK, and they're just now expanding into the United States, so we're super excited to have Dr. John Howie with us here today. Welcome Doctor John.
00:38 John Howie
Thank you Lorien. It is great to see you.
00:40 Lorien Clemens
So I know that Lintbells is huge in the UK. I was telling you before we started today that I have even friends in the UK who are like, "how do you not know about Lintbells?" Or, "how do you not know about YuMOVE?" But here in the United States we're just now getting to know you. I know veterinarians have been recommending Lintbells for about a year and a half now I think, here in the United States, but I would love it if you could give our audience just an introduction, to you, Lintbells and how you got started. So we know you better.
01:05 John Howie
Yeah sure. So, my background is in science, so I am a scientist originally, and I then moved into food and health industry -- so I spent a long time looking at how you can use nutrition -- particularly to provide health benefits, and as part of that, we started looking at how we could do that for pets, for dogs, cats and horses. We went into the science essentially of various nutritional items such as omega-3's and so on, and identified some opportunities where we could improve pet health by using the right nutrition in the supplement form rather than through the food. So we did that about 15 years ago, started the business and that as you say, we've now grown up to be the number one in the UK over the last 15 years.
01:46 Lorien Clemens
Well I want to talk a little bit about supplements before we dig into Lintbells and YuMOVE. I just -- because you know, we hear a lot of claims bandied about, all the time about supplements and all the magic that they can do for your health as a human, and I mean I know that any United States citizen can go into any grocery store here, and you have shelf, upon shelf, upon shelf of all of these different supplements and the Internet is like blown up with them. But from a pet perspective, what does it mean for supplements? Let's talk about that first, but then after that I want to dig in a little bit more into all the claims out there. So talk first about, you know when I think about a pet health supplement, what am I talking about?
02:23 John Howie
Well that covers a huge range of different types of products that people refer to as supplement, and I guess probably the most common first question I might get is, "why isn't this stuff in my food?", surely I can get everything I need for my pet in the food, and the simple answer to that is there are just certain things that are really hard to put into a food, either because of a technical reason because they're not stable enough, there are sensitive, active ingredients that won't go into a food and stay beneficial to the pet in that situation. Or it could just be that to put them into a food is really expensive. So a route to do that, to provide those health benefits to the pet, is actually to use the supplement. What a supplement then is, it depends you know, some people call, you know, bits of jerky with something added a supplement, but in reality, what we're looking at when we're talking about supplements, we're saying, 'the pet has a specific health need that we need to try and help', and that might be that they have stiff joints or they have itchy skin, or they have a digestive problem of some sort, and so they need some extra support for that specific health condition. So from our perspective, we're always thinking about, what is the challenge the pet parent is dealing with? what is the dog or the cat got as a as an issue? And then what can we provide from an ingredient and nutrition point of view, that can support that health condition?
03:42 Lorien Clemens
03:43 John Howie
And that's our view of supplements.
03:45 Lorien Clemens
Well, and that's very helpful too because you're right, there's a lot of things that I look at, and I say that's just a fancy treat. It's got something else added on, you know, whatever. They use some fancy ingredient, and then now they're putting the word supplement on it, and I tend to look at things with a lot of skepticism, and I don't know that everybody is like that, but I am. I immediately look at them like that. Mhn, that sounds like a lot of you know what, so I am very suspect of claims -- which honestly so many of them are hyperbolic like, "this is going to be magic for your dog!" And I'm like, mhm-okay, maybe, so I would love it if you could, you know, regular pet parents like me. Maybe even those folks who were already skeptical as me. How do you know whether a supplement is really going to be good? Or it's just some fancy treat with some fancy sounding, you know, ingredient in it?
04:36 John Howie
And look it's really difficult. It's incredibly difficult to differentiate 'cause there's no doubt there are a lot of people out there that are really good at marketing stuff, and they can make some fantastic claims and they promise the earth as you say, and that's true in all supplement space actually, that's true in the pet space. It's the same in human space as well. I mean I'm a nightmare if I go into a store and I'm standing looking at the supplements for humans, and there's somebody standing there, oh I wouldn't buy that one. That's no good. How does a normal consumer, not some nerd like me know what to buy right?
05:09 Lorien Clemens
05:10 John Howie
I think there are a few things you can look for. You can look to see whether that company has done any research. Can you find anything that shows you they've done some scientific research to demonstrate that the product they're giving to, or trying to sell to you, actually does something. Is there any proof that product actually works, or any research behind the ingredients in it that would suggest that actually it would work? It's not easy, but generally companies that have done the research will tell you about it.
05:38 Lorien Clemens
05:39 John Howie
I suppose another way is you can look at -- if you're online -- you can look at the reviews. You could see what are other pet parents' say about this product. Do they think it's good? Now, the only challenge for that one sometimes is people say stuffs good because they just used it and they don't want to say anything else, but.
05:56 Lorien Clemens
05:57 John Howie
You get a sense after a while of the types of products that are actually really doing a difference. People start talking about what their dog is doing differently to what they were doing before, and so you can use those sorts of approaches, and then try and understand whether what the quality parameters are that people are using. How can you be sure that what you're buying is actually what it says it is? And again there, you really have to drill into what the company is talking to you about on that one.
06:21 Lorien Clemens
It isn't easy, and you know, I think having that discerning eye -- particularly you mentioned reviews, I always look at reviews with skepticism. I mean first and foremost, I'm like, if there are some really bad reviews in the mix. I'm like, okay, these might be legit. When they're all five stars, I'm like, Mhm... not buying it, and the other thing I recently discovered, is there are some companies that frankly go out and buy, or they'll send a bunch of you know products to micro influencers or whatever, and then those influencers, essentially are paid, to come back and give a good review and I think in some cases the review itself might be good, but they were may be asked to not give a review if it's not good, and only give a review if it is. That kind of thing and so I was looking at one particular product that's not a health supplement, but I noticed that all of the reviews were within a five day period last year, and then before and after they're very sparse and like, mhm-okay, you know, that's kind of your key to that. But clinical studies, I think for me, you know, especially when they've been peer reviewed and they're based on solid science, for me, are what are the deciding factor for me, and I know we're going to get into that a little bit, but before we do, let's talk about this specific supplement that you are now expanding widely here in the United States, YuMOVE. So I'd love it if you could talk about YuMOVE, what it does, how it got developed, why it's the best? That kind of thing.
07:40 John Howie
Sure. So we developed YuMOVE, launched it back in 2009, so it's been around quite a long time now in the UK. As you say, it's recently coming to the US, but has been around for a good length of time now. We originally -- when we were looking at it -- said we weren't actually going to launch a joint supplement. So it's a joint supplement for dogs that helps them run around more and enjoy life and take away some of those challenges they might have with mobility, but when we looked at the space, we said, there are so many joint supplements, why would we even start to think about it? But then when we looked a bit closer, and we realized that everybody was thinking about the same thing, everybody was looking at things like glucosamine and were worrying about joint structure, so we're trying to worry about wear and tear in the joint, but the real challenge is that as the dog ages, they're finding it harder to move around. They're finding it difficult to run, to chase balls, to climb stairs, etc. And so we said well what we need to do then is work out how we make that piece of their life easier. How do we help them to be more mobile and run around more? Because the more mobile they are, the healthier they stay for longer. So we started looking for active ingredients that would help us in helping them to feel more comfortable, and so we did a huge troll of all of the research that was available on different natural ingredients, and one of those that we landed on was greenlit muscle. Which is a really unique source of omega-3's that are great for helping dogs to move more, and there's a good body of scientific evidence already published to show that greenlit muscle is helpful for that. So we started building our supplement around that, and then we included things like glucose because you do need some structural stuff, and we put in something called highlyronic acid because you need to lubricate the joints and help them to stay healthy as well, but that was the core, was to say this product needs to help the dog to move more than it is. That's why it is called YuMOVE, because it helps the dog to move more, and then having done all of that, we then wanted to put our own science behind it, and so we then commissioned clinical studies first with the Royal Veterinary College here in the UK, which is one of the UK's leading veterinary schools here, and then we did a second study in New Zealand with Massey University, which is the leading university in New Zealand for veteran science. So we wanted to put our own proof behind our products that, you know, we promise you that this is going to help your dog to move better and we want to prove that, so that's what we did.
10:06 Lorien Clemens
I love it and I've used a lot of joint supplement in the past for my dogs, and for myself, but I found that some of them work extremely well, and some of them worked not so well, but it's interesting to me as I'm listening to you, you mentioned, you know, keep them active, that will prevent or prolonged that damage from happening. So in my mind, I'm like, wait, you know, most of my dogs started taking the joint supplement when they were in that senior dog category. Is this something that then is really recommended for the lifetime of the dog, or just you bring it in when you start noticing the dog is getting a little creaky?
10:41 John Howie
I mean, I always think that prevention is better than cure when you're looking at these things.
10:45 Lorien Clemens
10:46 John Howie
Naturally, and it's perfectly, you know what you've described is perfect. Normal people notice that their dog might be slowing down a bit or struggling to get out of the basket. That tends to be the trigger when they start thinking about this, and you can still do a huge amount at that time. It's not as though it's too late, and obviously a lot of our customers, the first time they meet us, they're in that situation already, and so we'll help them, but even at that point, if you can help the dog to move better at that point. The important thing with all of this, when they're running around and enjoying themselves, they're maintaining their muscle mass, so they're maintaining the support, the muscle support around the joint itself. Which means that you get this sort of nasty cycle that if the muscle mass starts to fall away, the joint wobbles more. So where it wears out faster, and so that becomes less comfortable, much quicker, and then you get this cycle because they say, well I'm not going to move so much 'cause it hurts. So then the muscles go and then the joint wobbles more, and it just cycles and there's no way back. So the sooner you can start the better because you're getting into that cycle at an earlier point. So whilst we started in that place with the older dogs, we've now got a young and active formulation for younger dogs, and particularly if you've got very active dogs that are really, you know, they're running around a lot. They might be doing something like agility or flyball, or a sport of some sort. They'll tend to be creating extra wear on their joints, so certainly for those sorts of dogs, or indeed if you've had a dog that has hurt itself at some point, again, it helps just to keep them maintained in good health before they get to that late stage.
12:28 Lorien Clemens
That place, yeah.
12:29 John Howie
And as I mentioned, we've been doing this since 2009, so we've got the original dogs. The children of the dogs, the grandchildren, you know, so we've gone generational on this and what we tend to find is our customers that have been with us the longest, tend to start their next dogs much earlier than they did the original dog. They kind of said actually I'm gonna go in early on.
12:51 Lorien Clemens
Yeah because they've seen how effective it was with the older dogs, so why not that prevention piece in there, and prolonged for when those joint, you know, aches and pains are gonna happen. Okay, so you mentioned that you guys are dog nerds, and you also, I heard you mentioned just now, greenlit mussels, which for me I'm like, EW! That sounds like something I don't want on my plate, but can you talk a little bit about this ingredient and like, how you get it? Why is it important, and how the heck did you find out about greenlit muscles?
13:20 John Howie
So greenlit muscles are a delicacy and they're actually really popular food ingredient. That's where most of the world's greenlit muscles like that, and they only come from New Zealand by the way, they are unique to New Zealand, and we've found them in the first place because there's a lot of research on them and some good evidence that they have a good beneficial effect in dogs, but we wanted to make sure that we're getting the best ones that we could, and so we identified that actually within greenlit muscles you get lots of variation in levels of things like omega-3, and we identified a particular combination of omega-3's in greenlit muscle that had this amazing effect that we see in YuMOVE, and so we've had to try and over the last seven or eight years, develop an entire plan to make sure we can get enough of these particular types of muscles as we grow and more and more people start using the product. So we've got an entire program now so we know where the muscles grow, which areas are best -- so they grow around the coastal regions of New Zealand, and they're all farms so it's all sustainable and well managed, but we know which are the best places, which are the best areas and bays. What time of year you have to be in different places to hit these optimal conditions, and then you have to look after them really carefully as well so there's an entire protocol for how we move them from the water to the drying facility -- exactly how they dry so that you protect all of the bioactivity that we're looking for to make sure that we've delivered it from the muscle in the water all the way through to the dog. So yeah, the reason we're nerdy is we've spent hours, days, weeks, months -- I've flown to New Zealand about 10 times from the UK just to make sure this program is all working and perfect, and we've still got huge amounts of research running in New Zealand and in the UK to make sure that our prudence keep coming out to that.
15:08 Lorien Clemens
I think that's one of the things that folks don't necessarily Grok when they're looking at any product that's out there that really has had a lot of science behind it, is the amount of time that goes in to developing these things. I mean I know from our end like yes, we founded in 2010, but we didn't get anything out until much later because we were so busy like, digging into it, and developing it, and testing and testing it, and so I mean, how much time does it typically take somebody like Lintbells to develop a truly solid, science backed supplement?
15:44 John Howie
Well, that's a hard question. Realistically, it's probably at least two years work, but in some respects a lot of the true benefits are coming from work that we've done prior to that. So our research, our fundamental research program, which is where we are looking at researching our active ingredients. So a lot of supplement business just go out and buy whatever is available on the shelf.
16:08 Lorien Clemens
16:09 John Howie
But we're researching the active ingredients themselves to develop our own versions, so that program has been running for the last 10 years. So some of the stuff that you will see in our products coming through now, will have been under development for up to 10 years in terms of how we put that together. But if we know kind of that we've got the active ingredients to actually put it into a product is at least 12 months, simply because whereas quite a lot of companies would just put the product out on the market, we will actually test it and will test it at each phase and we'll make sure that everything we put in in is still there when it comes out, and we do that with all of our production anyway, but just to make sure that that promise we're making to the pet parent is actually being delivered. So that's why our programs take quite a long time to develop.
16:56 Lorien Clemens
One of things that's come up recently, I think mostly because of vaccine stuff that we're all going through, but it's this idea that science isn't the truth. Science is the search for the truth, and it's continually testing and then changing your assumptions and then retesting, and then as you get more information, you use that information to readjust what you think is the truth, and I love when I'm talking to a company that is backed on real science and not just like we think this is going to work, oh people are saying it's working, perfect we're done.
17:26 John Howie
17:27 Lorien Clemens
You know that kind of thing.
17:28 John Howie
You'll see that with our -- for example -- with our veteran formulation that came out of -- so our veteran formulation advance, YuMOVE advance came out of our research from our first clinical study, where we realized that even though we were proving it worked, there were still more we could do to improve. We could still get further, so that's when we went back and said okay, right guys, we can do more here, so let's find that next level.
17:51 Lorien Clemens
I love it.
17:53 John Howie
That's how you got to work, I think. That's my personal view.
17:54 John Howie
You've got to. Awesome. Well thank you so much for that. That kind of also leads into my next question, but it's all about science, and tracking, and actually saying like, okay, here are the actual results, and then how can we improve? How can we go? And so I would love if you could talk just a little bit more about the science, and actually those studies that you do, and why it's so critical because so many honestly bags of dog treats that are labeled as supplements or even joint health have nothing behind them other than like, well, we're using this ingredient that other studies have said works. So can you talk a little bit about why that continued science and continue taking really close, you know, critical view of what you're putting out there is so important.
18:36 John Howie
Definitely. I think, you know, the reason that a lot of companies don't do the science -- well there's a couple of reasons. One it's really expensive, so you've got to believe that your product is gonna come through that scientific rigor and come out the other side, if you're gonna invest, you know, the first study we did cost far more than the entire income of our company on an annual basis, but we decided to do that because that's what we believed was the right thing to do. So it's a really expensive thing to do so not many people do it. Secondly, as I say, you need to be confident your products actually going to do what you think the science should show you. So again, a lot of people don't necessarily have that confidence that they're going to show the right thing. What we wanted to do in our studies, though, was to actually track the mobility of the dogs. So rather than just taking them in znd say, well, do they stand better? What does a vet think of them with our product, or not? We did a full clinical study where we compare the YuMOVE to a placebo control. So something to check it wasn't just the owner thinking the dog was better.
19:44 John Howie
But in order to get rid of any of that concern about whether it's just an opinion, we actually used activity monitors, which they're kind of like -- you get them now, you didn't at the time, like Fitbits for dogs.
19:55 Lorien Clemens
19:56 John Howie
You attach it to the dog's collar and that measures all the movement the dog does, at that time it's running through the studies, so we were actually able to say, well, are these dogs more active? Are they running more? Are they walking more? Are they spending more time playing when they're on YuMOVE versus when they're on the control product, and that's what we showed, so we showed that there was a statistically significant difference in the amount of movement that the dog had when they were on the YuMOVE, and so that's what enabled us to in the UK, we can now say that our product is clinically proven.
20:29 Lorien Clemens
20:30 John Howie
We've gone through that study and we've shown that.
20:32 Lorien Clemens
Well now you have to go to the US where I know that rules are a little bit different here in terms of what you can and cannot claim, but can you talk a little bit about like, so here in the United States, I mean obviously you can publish your clinical studies, but how much of that are you able to communicate to US folks?
20:49 John Howie
Yeah, well it is different and actually there are certain things we can say in the UK that we can't say in the US. There are other things that we can talk much more about our study in the US then we can in the UK, so the rules are all -- and that's the same in any market we go, 'cause we're not just in the UK, we're in Europe, we're in Asia, so we're in a lot of different countries around the world, and each one is different. So we have to keep adjusting.
21:14 Lorien Clemens
21:15 John Howie
Adjusting what we say and I have to keep remembering whichever country I'm in and you know, doing an interview like this.
21:20 Lorien Clemens
21:21 John Howie
What set of rules am I working with in the back of my head?
21:23 Lorien Clemens
21:24 John Howie
So that's what I can say and so we are able to do much more communication actually in the US market, we are able to do much more communication with the veterinary profession about our study then we could with the UK veterinary professional, so we're able to explain it to vet's within a consumer environment within talking to pet parents, we just have to say clinically studied.
21:45 Lorien Clemens
21:47 John Howie
But it's like, we have proven our product, trust us.
21:49 Lorien Clemens
Yeah we have proven our product, trust us.
21:52 John Howie
After that, that's always the difficult bit. How do you listen to me sitting on a chat? Well, he would say that.
21:58 Lorien Clemens
21:59 John Howie
You make the logo sitting behind bound to it.
22:01 Lorien Clemens
And I, you know, just because I'm a skeptic. My family background is they're all scientists. I'm the only non scientists of the group, but they're all scientists, and so I always go, "mhm who paid for that study?", you know, kind of a thing, and it's hard, because it's trying to get that third party -- neutral party to come in and do that study for you, I mean, it's exorbitantly expensive, but that being said, the fact that you took the investment, it does mean a lot to me actually, and I think to a lot of consumers.
22:27 John Howie
On that point specifically, yes we've paid for the study, and this is perhaps something for listeners to think about as well is we've intentionally gone to universities, independent universities, world recognized universities, who have their own reputation to think about. They can't be seen to be biased. They can't be seen to have been playing the company message, and we've done that intentionally because you will find that some companies will go and do their own studies with full control over whoever is studying that product. We've intentionally said, 'no we go to independent groups in order to do that work' so that you don't have that bias that might come from somebody that was paid by its effects.
23:06 Lorien Clemens
I love it and then you tell them, here's the question we want to answer, and then they get to develop the experiment. They get to have control of the variants -- have all that. So let's talk a little bit more about cases 'cause I know that our audience would really love to hear about, okay, so what are some of the stories? I mean are there any things to go wow that is so awesome? Because I think when you can make it personal with, you know one dog or one cat, it makes it feel more real and then folks can get, oh this might be what I need for my dog.
23:35 John Howie
Yeah so I've got to think through my 1.5 million case studies to see if I can find roughly the number of dogs we've got using it now.
23:43 Lorien Clemens
23:44 John Howie
And then interestingly, obviously I'm sitting here in the UK so we're recording this quite late in the UK, but from my morning I sat on a call this morning with our guys who are reviewing our latest reviews on our trust pilot site, it's about 30,000 reviews on them. So just recounting all these stories, probably actually though one of my favorites going back a bit now, is when we were doing that original work. One of the owners on that study decided to do before and after videos. Now I'm not allowed to show them in the UK.
24:15 Lorien Clemens
24:16 John Howie
But there's a dog called Rusty, and essentially had a lot of challenges in his front legs, and so that's why the owner had asked to be involved in the study and she sent me the before video, and it was quite heartbreaking as you could really understand what that dog was dealing with and what that meant for for the owner and so I said, okay, well we've got definitely got a tough case here. This is gonna be interesting one to see how this goes. So then six weeks later, suddenly the second video, and the same dog is running down the garden path to her, the change was incredible, and it was just you could see the emotional impact it was having, and I thought that was the end of it. Then about six months later, she sent me another video, and said, "look at him now", and there he was running through a field and the sun was shining and so, you know, It was lovely to see not just that first piece, because that's what we've designed the product to do.
25:15 Lorien Clemens
25:16 John Howie
But actually it's the fact that, that continued use had helped him to get out to the point where from barely being able to get across the floor in the house, he was now going out for a walk in the field and enjoying himself.
25:26 Lorien Clemens
25:27 John Howie
And you see that time and time again with reviews that come in, loads of people say, "oh he's like a puppy again."
25:33 Lorien Clemens
25:33 John Howie
You've given me my dog back, and yeah, emotionally it's incredibly rewarding, and the guys this morning as we're going through these reviews, you can see them sort of welling up with tears. Some of the emotion that was coming out from people saying thank you for what you've done for my dog. It's so nice to have my dog.
25:49 Lorien Clemens
And I do love those, now you said we can't show them in the UK, can we show them here in the United States?
25:53 John Howie
That's a great question I don't know the answer too, I suspect -- well let's put it a different way, in the UK, I can't show it.
26:01 Lorien Clemens
Right, but we could show it maybe.
26:03 John Howie
But the owners definitely can, so I suspect if you Googled YuMOVE Rusty. You'd probably find the owner.
26:09 Lorien Clemens
Alright!` Well, we will do a little Google Fu and see if we can find those videos and then maybe we'll share them in the notes below. I love it -- love it, and one thing that occurred to me 'cause we talk about pets in general, but I know that we've been banding about the word dog. Is this something for cats or is this just for dogs?
26:26 John Howie
No no, we do a cat supplement as well, so t's it's based on the same science. It's slightly different formula. It's adapted for cat rather than the dog, but no we've got thousands of cats using YuMOVE cats as well, and that is available in in the US as well now. It's just we've only recently introduced it actually because we started with the dog products, but we just immediately got demand -- certainly from our veterinary hospitals that are stocking YuMOVE in the US now just said, right, so where's the cat version?
26:56 Lorien Clemens
Where's the cats? Yeah.
26:56 John Howie
We've got one here and then they turn around and say where's the horse version? So now we've just launched.
27:02 Lorien Clemens
Oh wow! So we have the canine, feline and equine all out in the veterinary market. That's fantastic, and I know too, just peeking around on the Lintbells site you do more than just the joint supplement stuff, but how much of it is available in the US?
27:16 John Howie
At the moment the other main product we've got available in the US is our anxiety supplement called YuCALM which we've had in the UK for a long time, but, you know, again we were getting demand for that, so we've launched the YuCALM product and that was one again, back to the science, there's a university in the UK -- a veterinary school in the UK at the University of Bristol, and they're the specialists in behavior -- in helping with animal behavior. So we actually went to them and developed it with them. We use their expertise and they they did all the initial research and so on for that, so again, there's research sitting behind YuCALM, and it's not just about calming the dogs down, we've tried to help them to feel happier and more rewarded, so it's about helping them to train out of whatever it is they're anxious about, so calm down from what they're scared of, but also you can use it to train the dog to be more comfortable with whatever that anxiety trigger was.
28:14 Lorien Clemens
I love it and it sounds like it's backed by the same level of science that you put behind the YuMOVE which is important I think. I know we're running out of time here, so I want to make sure that you get a chance to tell us where folks here in the United States can get YuMOVE or even YuCALM for their pets.
28:29 John Howie
Yeah so I mean you can go to our website and if you want to read more about it, then YuMOVE.com has all of the information on that, but we're also available on sites like Chewy as well, so you know, if you're on Chewy buying some of your other products from there you will find YuMOVE and YuCALM on there as well. So that's probably the easy places to find it. Or indeed you can talk to the veterinary 'cause we have different strengths of formula. So we have a veteran formula particular for very old dogs, which you can get from your veteran hospital.
28:59 Lorien Clemens
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much Dr. John Howie.
29:01 John Howie
It's my pleasure.
29:02 Lorien Clemens
Really great having on this show today, and folks if you have any ideas or things that you'd like us to cover in one of our shows, please drop us a note. Just do it here in the comments we'll get it and we'll see what we can do to get that show out there for you. Thanks so much for joining us today and have a great day with your pets.